So the previous post was born out of my Facebook conversations today.
I would like to share with you the extended conversation I had with an acquaintance from college. We will call him "JU" (like our university). A few others jumped into the conversation and I will add them in with appropriate names. :)
After I posted the Patheos discussion about the Dems blaming the Jews, I got this comment on my wall - (here we go folks, be sure you are strapped in and ready for the ride)
JU - talia, I'm curious...would you still support Obama if he apologized to the world for the United States provoking Iran to send a nuclear missle into Jerusalem?
Jen - I don't think the US would have to provoke Iran for that to happen. I don't think I understand the hypothetical you've posed.
JU - The President would blame the US for this
Jen - on what are you basing this assumption?
JU - The international apology tour that he undertook several months ago.
Jen - so because he make an international trip, it's an "apology" tour? your logic still eludes me....
JU - He dislikes this county, the founding documents he finds a document of "Negative rights", and will bow to a Saudi King. With no basis he calls Cambridge police stupid for arresting a black professor who was acting beligerent toward an officer of the law ..Obama takes ten days to comment on the attrocities that the Iranian people suffered after ... Read Moretheir election; sat in a Church pew for 20 years listening to an anti-semitic preacher, Jeramiah Wright. The cynicisim posed in my question is to find out if Talia sides with Israel or Obama?
Jen - I think you're funny in a belligerent and mis-informed sort of way. There is still no logic in what you are saying. However, I will have to let Talia answer your question, which perhaps I should have done to begin with rather than engage in this madness. Curiosity got the better of me.
ME! THD - I highly disagree that the two are mutually exclusive. I believe that Obama is the man to take our country to the next level, into the 21st Century. I think he has the compassion and understanding to handle international diplomacy as well as domestic with tweezers, rather than the sledge hammer our former president used.
I think President Obama supports Israel and Jews but sees a need for this insane Middle Eastern feud to end. And I agree with Jen, Iran doesn't need any provocation to attack Israel. They have been threatening for years and years.
Eretz Yisrael is my spiritual homeland. I spent time there and love the land and my people. I support Israel and do not want to see it split into pieces but I also have good friends who are Arabs, Muslims, and who call themselves Palestinians. ... Read More
I think Mr. Obama was correct to open dialogues with the Arab nations. Without dialogue, there can be no peace or understanding. I do not believe that America can survive as an insular country... (it continued but took a bit to type, so there were responses in between)
More after the jump
Jen - 100% agree with all that you stated beautifully, Talia!
Archangel - Though I am conservative on most issues, I can attest that Talia is one damn cool lady. One *hella* cool lady. She's *slightly* less cool for having voted for Obama; but not much.
THD - ... we have moved past the place where we can sit in judgment of others from afar. The world has changed. We are all becoming assimilated into the same culture. One of iPods, cell phones, and the internet. We retain little of our identity. As my friend puts it - national distinctions are disintegrating.
I am an American and proud but I am also proud of my world and want to make it a better place.
Mr. Obama is helping us do that. He sees that too. Yes, he sat in Jeremiah Wright's church and I am not a fan of Pastor Wright but I try to evaluate a person by who they are and what they do, not who they knew/know. And I NEVER judge another person because that is not my place. Even in your bible is says, "Let he among us without sin be the first to condemn." ... Read More
Iran is a mess, but ignoring them or inciting them to violence won't help the situation.
So yes, I support Eretz Yisrael and President Obama. In fact, I sat in VP Biden's box during his acceptance speech at Invesco Field and wept with thought of a bright future.
JU - What has Obama done to make this country better?
THD - He's been in office for 6 months. I think we owe him the opportunity to work at it. I know that change and improvement doesn't come fast or easy. I am just not willing to judge a person out of hand. Sadly, that is something I am not proud of the USA, the constant need to judge, blame, and vilify. At least I gave former President Bush a few years ... Read Morebefore I decided he wasn't right for this country.
I do love how that is the argument the right gives, So what has he done to change things? We are still recovering from 8 years of mismanagement.
Jen - Exactly! I don't understand how people can suggest that all of the complex problems we are facing can or should be fixed inside of 6 months. It took eight years (plus) to get us here. It will take time to get out, but at least someone has acknowledged that change is needed and is trying to make the connections with the world that are needed to do so.
JU - No, this 10% unemployment is his, the National Ownership of GM and Chrysler is his, the Cap and Trade bill that will kill more jobs and raise energy costs is his, this Health Care Refrom Bill his; why is all of this stuff being ram rodded down our throats so quickly? If they say the results are going to take 2 years or more, what's the hurry? The... Read More bailout passed in the Fall of 2008 was done by a Democratically controlled Congress, not Bush. Obama is trying to say that we are going to need a 2nd stimuls...this one hasn't even taking it's complete effects and they want to do more. This is all about Obama...he can try and pass this off, but he is shoving all this down our throats. No one in congress is reading the bills they are voting on, they didn't even complete writing the Cap and Trade Bill before they voted on it...This country is under his watch, and we are tanking, msierably, but that's what he wants...more chaos, more need fo the Big Government to swoop in and take care of it.
Jen - Ridiculous. Unemployment is up because businesses are failing as a result of Bush's obscene allowances for big banks and businesses. Unemployment rates are not the result of 6 months of work, they are the result of trends that span years. Why did the government have to run GM and Chrysler? If they weren't, they would be out of business, which would... Read More have made the unemployement rate even higher. Is it Obama's fault as well that GM and Chrysler were mis-managed privately? Did he somehow reach back in time and produce two insolvent corporations? Yes, health care reform is his - do you know how many people, children especially, as a result of not having health care? Whether the plan is perfect or not, at least he is not just sitting on his arse!
THD - That is so interesting... I didn't realize you could ruin a 233 year old economy without even being in office and then being in office for 6 months. Wow. Interesting.
Bush pushed the TARP through while still in office, he could have vetoed it. There is plenty of fault to go around.
I refuse to accept that one person or one party is at fault here. I could listen to the argument that a combination of Bush's mistakes and Obama trying to fix it has lead us to a place of difficulty but I still am not so narrow minded to believe that one man tanked this economy or that his attempts to fix it have failed. Rather, I know that we have to hit the bottom before we can rise up again. The economy is cyclical and one man didn't ruin it.
But then again, Carl, I don't think you posted this to my wall to have a logical conversation, rather, I think you wanted to give your opinion. Thank you for stating it.
From here on out, I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.
Oh and to Jen's point, I was one of those poor idiots without health care. Going on 11 years, in fact. The previous administration couldn't have cared less about me or if I died in an urgent care waiting room to receive medical treatment I couldn't afford. At least President Obama is trying to help people like me who work hard but don't have the ... Read Moreresources for insurance. (Though I do now have insurance with my current company.)
I may not agree with this FIRST ITERATION of a plan but I do appreciate that he is trying, which is more than can be said for his predecessor.
JU - The US economy has been the most successful in the 233 years of existance because of PRIVATE enterprise, not Government control. GM and Chrysler should have gone through the chapter 11 Bankruptcy process Before getting billions of taxpayer dollars. When was the last time a President of the United States fired the CEO of a company? By the way, tens of thousands of workers lost their jobs after Obama took over GM and Chrysler. They closed hundreds of dealerships. (How can you generate a profit as a car company if you close the means to sell your product) Ask the people in Detroit how this change is working. Government intervention has grown out of control. We are currently running a Trillion dollar deficit, 6 months into the year. the Congressional Budget office is prediciting a Federal Deficit of 12 Trillion dollars by 2012. This is based on the current administrations policies, which were supposed to be new, transparent, bipartisan....he is a Chicago Thug!
Talia, if you went to the Emergeny Room, they coudln't have denied you care. Also, you could have applied for Medicaid. How many times were you sick since you got that insurance...by the way, if this new Health Care Reform Plan is so good, why don't all the Congressmen and President have to be on it? Obama said that if you are 100 and want a pacemaker, it might just be more cost effective to give you a pill. So under the proposed Obamacare, Ted Kennedy would be dead.
THD - Wow, very harsh words at the end there. But again, I am choosing to not judge. You know, your Christian virtues implore you to "Love your neighbor as yourself" (which really comes from the Jewish Torah) but that isn't quite so easy all the time, is it.
Then again another translation of Vayikra or Leviticus 19:18 is ve'ahavta lere'acha kamocha ani Adonai - "Guard the rights of your neighbor as you guard own." So I will guard your right to spew hatred, though I refuse to agree with it.
Again, the right to agree to disagree. Your arguments will not change my mind, nor will mine change yours and that is a freedom we are gifted with in America.
Excuse me, I forgot to add to the translation. At the end it says "Ani Adonai" which means, I am Adonai (G-d).
JU - Talia, I simply urge you to not be a drone that believes all that the President says...do some investigative work, like you have with the statisitc about anit-semitic democrats, which fueled this fire. Read the actual bill and see if it says what the President is claiming...this bill is about control not providing health care.
THD - And who says I haven't? Just because I don't agree with you? I thank you for your concern but "being a drone" has never been a problem for me.
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Whew! What a conversation. I can't say I enjoyed it but it was a great brain exercise. :)